00:00 Pat started ( Nov 3, 2015)
Born
July 5, 1925 in Bronze. Next to park where Yankee players would sit in park at night. We would ask for their autographs.
Mother/Father
My father was born in NY. My mother in Russia. She came to United States. She was one of six daughters and two sons. She was a very strong influence on my life. I went into service when 18 yrs old and I took a picture of my mother who was only 38 at the time. Soldiers would exchange pictures of their girlfriends and they would look at the picture and say that is not your mother. I said, yes, it is. She was only 38. So that was interesting.
Raised in Jewish family
Yes in a Jewish but not Koscher family. It’s interesting. During those yrs. Not sure typical but each of the daughters was responsible for taking care of the mother for one year. Every year ( the responsibility) would pass on . My grandmother and grandfather would stay with us for a year. Then it was passed to another daughter. Only the daughters not the sons.
(grandparents)
3:20
It’s interesting. Never knew them that well, I remember my grandmother was always sickly. When I went to Hebrew school ., one of the proud moments was when I came home and was able to read the Yidish newspaper to my grandfather ,which was quite an accomplishment. Unfortunately, my father who was American. did not speak Hebrew or Yidish, and when my parents wanted to say something for the children not to hear, my mother would say something in Yidish, but my father didn’t understand Yidish!
We were listening to a football game. I was 16 at the time and we didn’t even think about me being in the war because the war would be over in a few weeks. Unfortunately it wasn’t.
4:30
But it was interesting. I had signed up while still in college for the Army Student Training Progam . ASTP. We were assured when finished with basic training we would be sent back to college to learn something that would help the war effort. But when we finished basic training at FT Benning , Georgia they had cancelled ASTP. Because at the time the war was not going well in Europe. . That was the end of 1943. I was sent to infantry camp in Louisiana and when I finished basic training I went overseas.
I was 18 on July 5 and went overseas on Nov 5.
Drafted
Yes. I had a very unsual career in the service. When I went overseas I sailed on the Queen Elizabeth which was the fastest ship afloat and used as an army transport chip. We had 18,00 troops on board and sailed fr NY to Glascow.
6:30
It’s funny now I’m reading a book about the sinking of the Luthisania. A new book by young man who writes about disasters. Said at the time the Luthiania was so fast it could outrun Y boats, but it didn’t because they didn’t take care of it properly.
6:50
Anyway, I was there awhile and they put me on a plane to Glascow. I was one of 18 people chosen to stay behind to unload the luggage. I never rejoined my unit which fought in the Battle of the Bulge. And most of them were killed.
I was in Glascow a week and then went to France where I camped awhile. Then they put me on a plane and sent me to Italy .
I was one of 18 people. We Joined an infantry rifle company that was stationed outside Florence, Italy. I did my whole army career in Italy.
Job
A Second Scout in an infantry rifle company.
7:39
A Scout goes in front of unit to see if the way clear. Fortunately, by the time I joined the unit they were in a city above Florence called Bologna. We were waiting to cross the Po River. When we crossed, it was like in movies. We sat on these tanks and rode thru villages and the people threw flowers at us. Interesting kind of thing.
8:55
When I got home I had had opportunity to be in the war and yet come home not having been injured. My mother always said , just send him home. I’ll take care of him no matter what condition he’s in. At the time I said to her that I was very confident and I’ll be fine and it’s just part of my life.
Siblings
Had a sister 4 yrs younger.
You’re the only son
Yes. I was considered God, I must confess. I did promise to write to my mother every day that I was overseas.
9:30
And I did pretty well. When I came home a friend who was a writer took them and made them a book called “I lost my Harvard accent” which referred to the fact you lose your identity as a person. You are just a unit.
After the war over, April 1945 I didn’t have enough points to come home so I was in cccupation in northern Italy.. It was very exciting. I started to write the army newspapers. My ambition was to become a writer. ….I didn’t become a writer.
What occupation like?
Pop was starved.
My memory was very pleasant. I was sort of shelterd person. Always thought that being in the service allowed me to travel in Europe, which I never would have done at that age, certainly. Because writing for a local newspaper , I had a jeep at my disposal and we would drive around to the local units and find things to write about. I had the opportunity to be a writer.
11:25
I wrote what I thought were humorous column about life in the service. I was the Jewish Bill Malden, if you know who that was. ….. A wonderful cartoonist in Italy, who published bks afterwards,……about two soldiers typical of the times. He was illustrating and I was the one who was writing about them.
I made many good friends. One of my friends came to one of my sons’s bar mitzhs. Of course, that was years later.
14:00
I did have interesting experiences. When I was in defensive positions in one o the foxholes I caught hepatitis . I was sent to hosp in Fl. Met a woman there. Thought she was an older woman. I was 18, she was 30. She brought me the NY Times every wk or so. After the war when I was married, I guess 15 yrs after the war. My wife and I were going to the theater in NY, and at the intermission we were outside the theater and this old lady walked up. She said, did you ever become a writer? It was the nurse that had taken care of me In WWII and I remembered her name . I asked , how did you remember me? She said, I remember all the soldiers that I took care of.
Furthermore, I save stories. ? When I celebrated my 70th bd, which was 20 yrs ago , my daughter who lived in NY, looked up the nurse who was living in Long Island and she went out to Long Island to the retirement home and taped a discussion with the nurse ( about the war).
As I said I appreciated the opportunities of the war and, that I didn’t get hurt.
When I came home a lot of others from the forties joined Veteran’s organizations. I never felt that I wanted to be known for my participation ( in the war). I thought it was an interesting part of my life but when I came home it was 1946. I was 21 . Went back to college. Life went on. I have had a very interesting life.
15:36
Wife: Tell about when you took your shoes off
When attacking , we had to cross Po River in N. Italy. We were a large army grp at the edge of the border. An order was sent back: All troops will remove your boots so they don’t get wet. At the time I said, what if enemy shooting at us? Apparently he is in retreat ( it was said). So we took off our shoes, crossed the river, sat down and put our shoes back on and continued on.
Just read bk about war in Afghanistan there’s a chapter about how the army brass conducted the war in Afghanistan. As you read, you say no wonder we never won. They’re crazy. …….They regard us as pieces on a chess board. They have no idea what is going on.
Was it dangerous at all to be a scout?
17:25
Yes, it was very dangerous. I did my job. Carried messages from the front to the rear to the colonel who was in charge of the operation. I felt it was a learning experience.
Did you ever think about the experience of the Jewish people?
To be honest I did not. When I came home….? organizations, Jewish war ?organization? ….I considered myself as an American. I really didn’t think of myself as a Jew. Fortunately, I was not Europe. If I had come into the concentration camps I would probably have changed my view.
It’s interesting… Watched the movie, Exodus, just the other day. You see these movies. You get so excited because it ends on a positive note. I was a part of that group. That is important to me.
As young man and a dangerous job to do… Afraid?
19:20
To be honest., No. I always said to myself that I am going to come back the way I was. The fact that I was only 18 I think perhaps you don’t think in terms of being hurt. It’s not that you think you’re invincible. I said to myself I am going to do my job, do what they tell me.
One of thgs about being in the service… you lose ur identity as person, become pawn like a chess game. They move you from place to place.
When in basic training at Ft Benning all the people who were training us were fr Kentucky and TN. And were violently anti-Semitic. They used to make fun of us or say phrases. At the time, we looked down on them; thought they were lesser people.
One of the thgs that happened later in the service, I used to write letters for soldiers who could not write or read. They hated me. Because I was able to do it. What are you , they would say? I would say, what do you mean? What religion? I said I am American.
22:00
Well it said on my dog tag that I was Jewish. H for Jewish.
In grp basic training, all college students. The captain, name Yale Cohen. 0iWhen he spoke to a lg group, there were always some who made derogatory remarks.
What I found difficult ,… I came from NY and had never been w these other people. There were two black soldiers in our platoon, one was fr Harvard, the other from the Univ of Chicago. They both were segregated into their own rm. Not allowed to live in the barracks w the other soldiers. When trained, spoken down to in terrible ways. I had never been exposed to that.
What lesson from that ?
(People) have a tendency to grp together. They’re more comfortable with their own kind.
In our later life, we always had non Jewish friends. When invited to their hms we were the only Jewish couple; when we invited them to our hm they were the only non Jewish couple. People would say, how do you know these people? They were neighbors in NY. My children fortunately married outside their religion, or maybe unfortunately. Their girls were very open.
Matter of fact, at my younger son’s bar mitzbah my daughter in law , in her speech to her attendees said, “ I want you to know that we are raising our son Jewish. Hus and I had discussion and that is what he (hus) wanted to do.
24:34
We are not observant Jews but we thought it was important for the history of the Jews that we recognize it.
Interesting, I have 3 sons, one of them married 3 times. Not one Jewish girl among them. They’re most wonderful. Always, the children are being raised Jewish. And they are very happy to be what they are.
We’re very fortunate. A very extended family. Also, very close to each other. My daughters in law – couldn’t be closer. Couldn’t be living to this age 90s if they weren’t living here in town. My sons…….just fabulous.
When you came back?
25:35
I had 49 points. It was interesting. You got your points for the number of battles or thgs in. I got 5 pts because I flew over France, over a battle area.
When I got out my mother didn’t come but my sister and my father to Governor’s
Island . I came home and back in school. Like I had not been away. Suddenly you were a veteran. ……..You did what you had to do.
Discharged in April 1946 and went back to school in Sept. Like I had taken a recess
How different?
I had this thought I would be writer when overseas. Fortunate to do some writing in the service.
I never really thought of myself (as sb) who would be in the army. (I’m) above this group. Not that I looked down on them, but nothing in common with them.
An intellectual?
Yes. Intellectuals. We were looked down upon as strange. In general, I did consider myself a special person. My mother always treated me as the king. I was the only son.
Many yrs later, when my mother in the hosp my sister said to me, you know what mother said to me? She really loved you the best. I said, I’m glad to hear you say that because I always thought she treated you as secondary.
Also, I brought a friend home and my sister married him. When she was 16 she met him and 18 when she married him. Never anyone else. And they’re still alive. He’ll be 91. A long lived family.
30:00
Interesting that we’ve lived so long. I don’t think ….Wonder if I ever thought that I would live to be 91? Now that 90, I told one of my grandson’s – he just went to college for the first time – He wrote: I hope, Grandpa, that I am able to make you happy with what I do. I said, that I plan to live to 100 so you have 9 years to get to work.
We’ve been lucky. Live here in town. Here for the birth of my two sons, the birth of all my grandchildrens, the weddings of my two sons who live here. Hate to say it, knock on wood, but I have lived a charmed life. We never would have had it if not moved to CA
If you hadn’t survived that war…
I never , ever had feeling that I would not survive. Not so smart but. I just said, I’m here,…I’m coming home,… do this and that.
Life has treated me (well) … S and I have been married for 64 yrs.
Wife: Don’t talk about it. Makes me nervous
Ok , don’t listen
Did you feel you participated in saving the Jews?
I didn’t hear about till I got home.
Wife: I did
34:00
I have always been a very positive person. Positive : You do what you think is right.
When I read about the Holocust it is very depressing. I would make every effort to see it doesn’t happen again. it. At the age of 18, I lived in NY, and was really sheltered. The fact was that my parents not actively involved Jewish activities. When my grandparents passed on the women in the family and the two uncles were really very Americznied. My m other came here before she was yr old and my father was born here. Don’;t think we ever talked about it. We were from Russia as opposed to Germany. Do remember when read thgs about how the German Jews felt they were better than other Jews, the Russian Jews. They were the intellectuals.
(What’s the book?) The Netsukis? Friend of mine wrote it. From Auncheloss to America. I read the book. They ( Austrian Jews) never felt they would be the targets because they were so regarded for their intellects that nobody would do smthg to them. But, of course, that was the reason why they did that. These other people thought the Jews were always superior in their attitudes. Nothing wrong with that because we are ( laughter) There’s nothing wrong with that. When you look at the world…..the Japanese….or Aisian people have taken over because they have one direction,. They want to improve themselves. Jewish children – their parents always want them to be better and have a better life than they had.
Talk about grandchildren,: We assume they will do great things. We have adaughter who is writer and although she didn’t end up writing Gone with the Wind, she has had a very interesting career.
Doesn’t the Po go thru Florence
We’ve been back to Italy a few times. We just love it.
With other Jews in the military w you?
I never thought of myself as a Jewish soldier, but an American soldier. So when situations arose……
I was replaced as a scout for a reason I did not think was proper. Went to my commanding officer and said to him that I would be changed because of my religion. He said you’re not that important, and said , I would not make a big deal of it, only going to hurt you. So I went back to my unit and wrapped myself up in myself and said, to myself, I am above all this.
41:56
Brief funny story I wrote in this book:
I had six copies made one for each of children, me and Phyllis. When they read it, they said what did you do in the war? You told us about your entertainment!
Well, I wasn’t going to write about……. To my mother it was the happy things I was doing ( book was about all his letters home). When I read it now, I laugh. In Glascow, I went to theater and saved program for 50 yrs. It was called Residents Only. Theater was different,. They had commericals during the intermission and served tea while you were sitting there.
I was naïve and being in the service made me a little less naïve.
No. Another favorite story. When went down to be inducted, I was a very strapping young man. After the physical you go into room where members of diff services ask you to be with them. One Marine said, you’re perfect to be a marine. I said, I don’t think so. Why don’t you think so? My mother wouldn’t like it. The entire room exploded.: His mother wouldn’t like it! ( they mimicked). It strikes me, -….Can you imagine saying my mother wouldn’t like it? Some idiot here.
Immature?
Yes.
44:55
More maturity when I came home. The few friends I made. Intellectuals. Pseudo-intellectuals I should say.
(interruption)
The army didn’t make me the man I am today – or it did and I don’t recog nize it.
( I didn’t get involved in things until later life). Went I moved to SB I was fortunate enough, got involved with teaching. Taught a film class for 10 years. I loved doing what I was doing. Probably in my dreams I would have liked to be a teacher. One of things is disturbing to me is the importance of money in SB and Montecito.
When we first moved here, made many, many friends but were always recognized as the poor relations.. We really had very little income, which still don’t have. Still lived like we did. Traveled and very intellectual friends. When we got together, they always talked about their stocks. I didn’t have any so couldn’t contribute. What I had to contribute.. was my brain and it was not really enough. Certainly made very nice friends.
Wife: Why dwell on this?
Because that’s what bothers me my whole life.
48:10
Name on dog ta
Never thought of self as Jewish soldier. I thought off myself as an American.
Wife: Coming fr NY,…everybody is Jewish, even the gentiles are Jewish. ….He ever had any feeling of anti semiticism like I did. I’m from Scranto, PA.
When Army student training program cancelled., I was the first platoon, my name started with A. Some very well known men in platoon when cancelled this thing about going back to college got on the phone to their fathers and got themselves transferred to a unit that was less demanding. I remembered Richard Dennis. His father was Mayor Curly who got him transferred. The Signal Corp. Another man’s father was a contractor in WA. He got transferred to Anapolis. All these thgs happened. I would say (to myself) I don’t know anyone I can call. …..
But these were people who all got along well …because we were all college students.
The name on my dog tag, I’m trying to remember. A fellow from Philadelphia named , Bressler, who was Jewish. But we never got together because we were Jewish. My best friend in the service was a guy who ended up going to Hollywood and marrying a dress designer. When we got home I went to visit him. He lived on Sutton Place. He was wealthy. He was a late child. His mother was 60 or something when he was born. Maybe 50. At the time I thought she was sixty.
In the service you automatically chose person next bed to you, thrown together. I don’t rembmer but must have been Jewish soldiers…….
52:57
Wife: The young people didn’t know about the holocaust. …..
People telling you that they felt very Jewish during the war?
We didn’t have any family …… or imprisoned…… ( grp conversation) or in Europe.
We used to go on forest hikes w packs on our backs. Said to self , I can never to this. When over, I would say ,…surprised at my ability.. I never thought of self as physical – not an athlete.
55:00
See,…. I,m ambarrased.;;;;I was very smart. I got into a very special school called Townsend Harris. Doesn’t exist anymore. I went in when 13 and graduated when 16 and went right into college. It was in the same building. …. Just assumed ….
What is it that they say about the Jews?
Chosen people?
We are the chosen people. Yes. In the sense that we lived in a restricted area, we may have considered ourselves a chosen people. My father went thru Depression, terrible shape. Yet he and my mother , who was dominant person …….who I remember yrs later took small money had made and invested it. She had always said if had been born 20 yrs later we would have had a very different life. Merril Lynch always said to her, Mrs. Alpert, you should come work for us. You know more than anyone else in the office. She did! She couldn’t see . but she knew every symbol on the stock exchange!
Don’t remember every being taken care of because of bad times.
Career after you got out?
56:55
Was going to be an accountant,. But when my figures didn’t add up, went into retailing. Worked for Macy’s for a few years. Opening up new stores. Then worked for National Sherpas ? which again, here I was a person who walked in for an interview: The man said you don’t look like a man who works at S___? I said, what do looks have to do with it? I got the job. I was different fr anyone else. …. I would say , why are we sitting here at 6 o’clock when everybody else in the business world is going home?
This is my personality
Came here in retirement?
When my parents died 1985, no reason to stay in eastern seaboard. Sister had moved to Fl. – we hated it. My sons were out here. They said why not come out here.? We did and , of course, loved it. We went to work at retail store at La Cumbre Plaza. SB said why not be a respresenattive at a co?
58:53
I said, Why not my wife.? We worked tog for years. Traveled the western coast together. Had a fabulous time. We loved it.
Wife shares about that.
Being Jewish in this area?
Wife: Not all our friends are Jewish, but most
Richard: How does that happen? Newcomers were not all Jewish but we picked out people wethought interesting and they were Jewish.
1:00:28
Wife: Active in the film festival for 25 years.
We stopped when we felt we were not interested any more.
Helped pick films for the festival?
Yes , for years. It was exciting. Got free tickets. …..Yes, we worked for it.
(More conversation fr others)
We were in a short that showed before the Film Festival
What did you teach?
Interesting. I am a film person. (When) socializing w people at our house we showed old films. People said, you ought to have a class. ……… ( I got ) ridiculous pay , like $60/hr. At Maravella. Adult Ed……… Did it for 10 yrs. To this day, still meet people who want to know when is my next class.
More conversation ( Kate)
Had a wonderful time. Felt bad when they made people pay.
We had about 2 thousand old films on VHS tapes.
A story: I used to have a tape of Elaine Mays and Mike Nichols but lost it. My daughter is one of these people who have a computer to her ear. (She said) Let me see if can find a copy. She called: I found a copy in Iceland. Don’t know what it is., but it’s Nichols and May. It came. I put It on and it was the same one!
One last story: Vanity Fair. Big article about Mike Nichols. On cover it said the article written by … two names. Said to my daughter, the second name is name of one of characters in one of M And E ……when he was going to inquire about the funeral and is asked if he is a relative…….and his name is something, something .
I’m sure E wrote that article.
Taping ends.